[00:00:00] Shireen: In this episode, we connect with Megrette Fletcher, who is a pioneering expert in mindful eating and diabetes education. She provides weight inclusive teaching materials and resources to help build strong relationships and promote sustainable wellbeing. With a master's degree in nutrition education and certification as a diabetes educator, she coauthored, Eat What You Love, Love What You Eat With Diabetes, a foundational text in the field.

[00:00:31] Stay tuned to learn more about her work.

[00:00:33] Megrette Fletcher is a mindful eating leader and co founder of the Center for Mindful Eating. She writes a free weight inclusive newsletter for people with diabetes. She is a registered dietitian and certified diabetes care and education specialist. Welcome Megrette. Welcome.

[00:00:59] Megrette Fletcher: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:02] Shireen: Such a pleasure having you on, Megrette. So first things first, let's learn a little bit more about you. Can you share your story of how you became interested in applying this technique around mindfulness to food and eating after starting your meditation practice in 1999? And what really, help us understand what really led you to believe in this potential value that could come from this?

[00:01:27] Megrette Fletcher: Sure. Well, meditation really helped me see that the present moment is the only place that we can change. And you've got to ask yourself, can I change the past? No, and you really can't change the future because it's not here. It hasn't happened yet. So the only place that change can happen is in the present moment.

[00:01:47] And so again, when I was meditating, that was helping me learn how to become in the present moment, kind of let go of the past and not really worry about the future.

[00:02:02] Now, this is very interesting that you mentioned around it and it makes you think, right? Like, can you change the past and what has happened? You like, what can you really control in the future? What can you really do about it? You know, in your experience, what role can Yeah. Yeah. Mindful eating play in all of this.

[00:02:21] Um, you know, starting with the prevention, management of chronic conditions, something like diabetes, you are a certified diabetes care and education specialist. How does all of this help us understand how all of this ties into chronic condition prevention or management? Yeah, it's a great question. And I think in the beginning we need to kind of compare mindfulness and mindful eating with dieting.

[00:02:46] So when we start a diet, initially it has a lot of appeal. I mean, it's easy to understand. The rules are clear. But over time, we have to recognize it takes a lot of energy to be vigilant, to really count and weigh and measure. And, and it also can create not only the time and kind of that, that effort, but also it kind of is heavy.

[00:03:12] You know, when we think about it, we're really worried, am I doing it right? And so that emotional weight is part of dieting. But when we shift to mindfulness, which specifically is that pausing, checking in, practicing that compassionate curiosity, it is hard at first, for sure. I mean, people tell me all the time, Oh my gosh, Megrette, this is like, I don't know.

[00:03:36] It's so confusing. But with practice, actually, mindfulness, Mindfulness is, it's easier over time. Mindful eating is easier over time. So mindfulness is really about compassion and, and bringing that loving kindness in. When we think about compassion, it's, it's not a heavy emotion. I mean, it's. It's actually very light and we start thinking to ourselves.

[00:04:00] Oh my goodness if I practice mind fleeting I'm letting go of all that rules. I'm trying to gently come into the present moment with that compassion So it doesn't have that emotional weight It really helps us let go of those feelings of maybe guilt or self blame or worry Because we're in the present moment and we're doing what we can do.

[00:04:24] Shireen: How interesting. You know, you you had a collaboration with Michelle May on Eat what you love with diabetes. So right out the gate that gets my attention because of the work that we do in this space. How did this collaboration with Michelle May really just come about and what was the process of developing a resource like this?

[00:04:47] Megrette Fletcher: Sure, sure. So, Michelle had created her own non diet, um, you know, approach to helping people with chronic dieting. So, she really had a great program, um, in the beginning. And then, as we talked, you know, I said to her, you know that a lot of people with pre diabetes and diabetes are chronic dieters all grown up.

[00:05:11] And that was really a light bulb moment. Now she also saw the value of mindful eating, um, And so she built her program around mindful eating. And so, you know, kind of as mindful eating was getting traction, she really developed a wonderful tool called the mindful eating cycle. And, you know, we kept thinking about how that would be helpful for people with diabetes.

[00:05:37] Now, many people assume that eating is a single decision, uh, But with a bit of reflection, it's easy to see it isn't. And so my, the mindful eating cycle is a tool to help you become aware of the many decisions that you make to eat or stop eating. So Michelle is a physician and I'm a diabetes educator, and the two of us combined have over 60 years of experience in the non diet mindfulness weight inclusive space.

[00:06:06] And I really think that that made adapting, um, that mindful eating cycle to diabetes, you know, pretty easy. It, it made it really possible. And so to the best of my knowledge, I keep checking. I believe that we are the only mindful eating book about, um, diabetes on the market. So kind of, kind of got that.

[00:06:28] And I think a lot of people forget, um, in 2005 and 2006, which is almost 20 years ago, you know, mindfulness. was just catching on that the research was really, really new. And so the idea of applying mindfulness to food and eating, you know, in fact, there really weren't a lot of people out there. So it was just a great collaboration to come together and to have these two, our two like minds, uh, come together.

[00:06:56] So that was exciting.

[00:07:00] Shireen: You know, you, you mentioned me, Chris, something that, um, uh, just now that I want to double click into. So you've mentioned all the different factors that go into mindful eating. Can you help us understand what those are? And, um, you know, when you're, when you're approaching it, I think on a day to day basis for a layman, like how do you keep all of those factors sort of top of mind as you're, you know, trying to balance mindful eating with like, seven other things that are competing for your attention at the same time.

[00:07:30] Megrette Fletcher: Yeah. I think with any behavioral change, you just want to start small. And I think a lot of people think, Oh, I'm going to practice mindful eating. I got to do it 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And I think that comes from diet culture. Diet culture really preps us to say we always have to be on like you can't let your guard down ever.

[00:07:51] And so the research is actually saying that a mindfulness practice of as little as 12 minutes. changes the brain, changes how we think. So if we go, well, that's pretty cool.

[00:08:03] , I want to go do that. You have to figure out when, when in your life are you going to go do that? I'm a simple person. I don't have a great memory.

[00:08:13] I said, you know what? If I did it before I ate, I know I eat like many times in the day. I could just drop in to the present moment before I eat. And that would really help me build my mindfulness. my mindfulness practice, it would help me really practice kind of letting go of the stress and worry and just being in the present moment.

[00:08:36] Now, the benefit of that is I get to taste and really enjoy the yummy food I'm choosing. Double win, right? I like the perspective shift there, which is like, I get to do this rather than I have to do this. Love it. Amen. Amen. Don't you love being an autonomous adult? Woo!

[00:09:04] Shireen: Love it. Um, you know, in addition to all of this, you have the center of, uh, excuse me, the center for mindful eating as well. Megrette, um, help me understand. And now within the center, you do work with professionals to help them integrate mindful eating into their own health programs. I do want to take two perspectives as you're looking at this.

[00:09:27] One, what are the types of things that health professionals, as you're talking to them, as you're reaching them through this podcast today, um, what are the types of things that they can learn around mindful eating where they can take it into their practice and understand, oh yeah, I can do this better, right?

[00:09:42] What does that look like for them? And then I also want you to provide a perspective for those who are listening on who are either, uh, someone with diabetes or another diet related or chronic condition. Um, what can they ask of their health professionals? When looking for those pathways to mindful eating.

[00:10:00] So help me understand both of those sides.

[00:10:03] Megrette Fletcher: Sure. So my involvement with the Center for Mindful Eating is, um, I helped found it. So I was one of three co founders. And, um, when we set that up, we had a 10 year span, and then we had to leave that organization. And since it's almost 20 years old, I am, uh, an advisory person, and I actually provide training.

[00:10:26] Training as part of they have an eight module training for a certificate and mindful eating for professionals So that's really nice and it's you know got all the professional education Requirements so I would say that's the resource for the professional who really wants to dig deeper Before we two foot into the pool of mindful eating, we gotta make sure that it's the right place for us.

[00:10:51] And so I think the mindful center for mindful eating really provides the research and it gives you a place to kind of say like, is this really the right path I want to offer my, my clients? If you personally don't believe in mindful eating, um, and mindfulness practice or you don't believe in mindfulness, like that, isn't your jam.

[00:11:11] Amen. I love it. It's probably not the right place for you. But a lot of people are turning around saying it's a go go world. I'm really stressed. My attention is split into a thousand different fragments between emails and texts and work and all this stuff that we have going on. I would like to unplug. I would like to be in the present moment.

[00:11:33] The Center for Mindful Eating offers a ton of resources. Handouts, programs specifically for clients, you know, like little nibbles for people, professionals or, you know, kind of adjacent people. So those might be, it may not be, um, a medical provider, but it could be a health coach. Um, so those are kind of, and there's lots of people that support us.

[00:11:57] It could be a community health worker. There's lots of people in the diabetes space that support us and it, and it isn't just our doctors. It isn't just our provider. And I think like, um, Yumlish right now is a great example of that. So as we start talking and saying, What else, what could go a little bit deeper?

[00:12:15] Knowledge is great. That's the squishy stuff. But the sticky stuff is all the feelings. And how do I support someone so they can support themselves with the squishy, sticky stuff of diabetes or any chronic illness?

[00:12:34] Shireen: Love that. And then, um, to the point around how someone can, if they're visiting a physician, a dietician somewhere, like you said, that that network extends. What are the types of things they can do in their conversations with their provider to be able to head toward more of that mindful eating? If they have a provider that hasn't gone through this, what are the types of things that they can advocate for for themselves?

[00:12:59] Megrette Fletcher: Well, I mean, with any relationship, we have to have some honesty. So this idea that the provider or these other professionals are higher than or have more value, um, you know, it's, first of all, it's not true. And secondly, it doesn't allow us to be honest because it's a hierarchical structure, meaning if we look up to our provider or we look up to our health coach or we look up to these other people, you have not taken an equal stance.

[00:13:32] And so really I think the step that we can do is when we go into any of these sessions is saying my experience has value, I have value, and And we start from that space. I am a bright and able person. I am the most knowledgeable about my own health experience. I am the most qualified to know what I need.

[00:13:55] We start there and we want to have that. It's a good place to start because it allows us to have an honest conversation about our needs. Instead of having this, well, they're going to tell me what I need to do, or they're going to tell me what I'm doing wrong, or they're going to tell me how I need to change, we can see that this is, first of all, it's not helpful, but second of all, it's just recreating that oppressive culture.

[00:14:22] And really, like, why would we ever want to start there? We want to start with saying, Hey, I am a bright and able person. I am the most knowledgeable about my health, and I am the most qualified to tell you about my needs. There we go.

[00:14:40] Shireen: Again, it's that change in perspective. I love it. Um, One of the other things I want to touch on with you, Megrette, is some of the resources that you provide and training tools that you provide through your company, which by the way, love the name.

[00:14:54] It's called No Weight Loss Required. I know I mentioned earlier about the free weight inclusive newsletter, but tell us about the types of resources that are available.

[00:15:05] Megrette Fletcher: Yeah, so I do write the No Weight Loss Required, and that is really for people that are thinking about and need support to move into this, uh, weight inclusive approach.

[00:15:17] And so that's, It's free and there are a paid option where you can get additional resources, but really I wanted to make it accessible to everyone. So if you do sign up, no cost, twice a month, you'll get, you know, an article that might explore, uh, What are target blood sugars? Or, you know, what about like meal services?

[00:15:39] Are there any good one? How about that internet recipe? Like, can I trust it? So those are the kinds of things that, that I talk about. And then I also talk about kind of those squishy things again. So those feelings, and they can be anything from like, Perfectionism, to doubt, to compassion, capacity. So lots of different sticky topics that actually do impact people with any chronic illness, but humans too, like people who are completely well.

[00:16:11] also get impacted by that. The other resources that I offer, so I also offer a newsletter for professionals or people in the health equity space called Inclusive Diabetes Care, and it's really looking at how diabetes is oppressive by nature and how the systems around diabetes are oppressive. And so just the statistics, just to help people understand 60 percent of all health outcomes and diabetes are directly related to the social determinants of health.

[00:16:44] When we talk about access to care, like Yumlish knows, it's just, it's, it's not there. So if we think about access to diabetes care for all people, it's somewhere between six and 10 percent of people are utilizing diabetes education and services. Okay, I want to say that again. 31 million people in the United States, 6 to 10 percent, are getting the support that they need around this condition.

[00:17:15] Now, if we expand it out to people with prediabetes, that's a hundred million people. And of that, 10 percent are getting the support they need. So we have to say to ourselves, not like they're doing it wrong, because that's an oppressive view, but It's the system is wrong, and how do we understand that system?

[00:17:36] And I think in this interview, you picked out quite a few ways, which is, when we even think about health, it's oppressive. When we even think about health, do we have trust? And so these are the kinds of things that we want to bring forward for, uh, Uh, people in the health equity space, people in, uh, the diabetes space, health care organizations, and those kinds of things.

[00:17:59] And I spend a lot of time, um, talking in that space.

[00:18:03] Shireen: That's excellent. And, you know, to what you mentioned there in talking about, um, trust, in fact, um, one of the things that we hear about, you know, you mentioned even the work that we're doing with Yumlish, within Yumlish, within when it comes to prediabetes, for instance, um, We constantly hear about doctors, for instance, telling this is not demonizing doctors is just to give more of that evidence around why this information is really needed, right?

[00:18:31] And why it needs to be provided out because we'll hear doctors say, Stop eating this. Stop doing that. Stop, stop, stop, stop. And it's a lot of like Just put an anti because everything you know is garbage and you need to stop, right? Which takes me to our next question, which is, you know, certain food groups tend to be demonized quite a bit any kind of Bread is a great example.

[00:18:58] Tortillas is a great example. We hear about it on and on and on. Um, but these certain food groups really tend to be demonized when it comes to diabetes specifically. And as a, you know, certified diabetes care and education specialist, I am sure you hear it all day long as well. What is your approach to those types of, that type of language?

[00:19:19] And then how do you approach it with someone who is trying to figure out how to eat better for themselves?

[00:19:26] Megrette Fletcher: Beautiful. Well, of course, food is blamed because if we think about it, it's easier to blame food than to come alongside a relationship with food. And so, for example, believing that maybe chocolate or bread or fruit is bad is easier than asking, why am I eating these foods?

[00:19:45] Yes, pleasure is a reason. Ease is a reason. Balance is a reason. So unpacking the why begins to shift the question. So instead of thinking, Can I eat food X? Shift the question, how can I eat Food X and have my blood sugars be stable? You know, how can I do this? And I think that question of, you know, don't eat, you shouldn't eat, and you can kind of, again, you can hear that it's really oppressive.

[00:20:18] It is a parental view. I'm a child, I'm this, you know, 60 year old person who's being treated like a child. Of course your inner teenager is going to come out. Of course you're going to be hands on hips going, I don't like that. So when providers do that and they go, I don't know why they didn't change. I told them what to eat.

[00:20:37] It's like you awoke in their inner teenager. I'm not taking this from you. I took it from you. And some, I don't know, six year old, 15 year old, you know, I'm very in touch with my inner 15 year old right now in my life. So it's just, you know, we just have to really understand. As adults, I'm in charge. Love it.

[00:21:01] So don't, don't wake up the inner teenager.

[00:21:03] Shireen: Love it. What are, what are also some distinctions when it comes to mindful eating? Um, especially when we're looking at a, you know, condition like diabetes, but then also something like pre diabetes, which is not quite yet, you know, that, that A1C levels aren't quite at the diabetes level, does the approach look different, similar, tell us a little bit more about that.

[00:21:28] Megrette Fletcher: Okay. Well, I think mindfulness is centered around the present moment, which is really coming out of that autopilot. And a lot of times, like I said before, clients think you have to do it 24 seven, but the truth is that's not possible. And again, as I pointed out, research shows as little as 12 minutes. So being in the present moment really builds the brain's capacity.

[00:21:52] It also builds resilience. It really also builds self compassion. So when you can think about it. If you have a chronic illness, if you're trying to make changes, we make mistakes, like, we don't do it, we're human, you know, and so again, when we talk about, you know, what's the, how can we do this, we're really trying to turn around and say, you're going to fall down.

[00:22:16] Like that's just what's going to happen. Life gets in the way of being perfect. And so really that coming into the present moment, compassionately helps us kind of dust ourselves off and go, okay, yeah, I saw that didn't work. I'm going to try this. I'm going to try that. But it's the dusting off. And so, you know, if people are curious about trauma informed care, trauma informed care talks about building resilience.

[00:22:44] We are going to make mistakes. That's just what's going to happen. We're going to choose something and say it was more important for me to enjoy my family than to do this. Amen. You know, I was sick, so I made this choice versus that choice. How can we compassionately come alongside that? And I think that that's really the distinction is not to be perfect, to challenge that thinking and to compassionately say, Yep, I'm dusting myself off.

[00:23:13] I'm getting back on this train of self care. Mm hmm. And I'd like the approach again Which is to say that it's not about all or nothing. It's okay. Show compassion to yourself. It's absolutely fine. Forgive yourself. It's okay Because you're in this position where you can you can go back and try again if you need to right?

[00:23:35] Shireen: Um, I We're, we're coming, uh, uh, Megrette toward the end of the episode, but I do want to try to squeeze in one more question, um, which is around consistency of meals. All right, that's that's one that we hear about often as well. How does consistency of meals specifically impact diabetes management again for someone who is trying to incorporate and do everything that they need to, but, um, in the same virtue of showing grace to yourself, showing compassion, how would you say consistency of meals can impact diabetes management?

[00:24:07] Megrette Fletcher: Yeah. So if I put that question back to you, Shireen, and say, if I were to ask you, do you want one, two, or three chances to win the lottery, which one would you pick?

[00:24:18] Shireen: I would pick three chances. Can I get, can I get more than three?

[00:24:21] Megrette Fletcher: For right now, just for this question's purposes, let's go with the three. So well, if you shift the question and say, you get three chances to nourish your body and the goal of nutrition and balanced eating is to nourish your body, you can start to see why consistency is so important.

[00:24:39] Consistently eating nourishing foods that you enjoy. Is really at the heart of nutrition.

[00:24:45] Shireen: I love that on that note, Megrette. Thank you so very much for your time here today. I would love as we wrap up this episode for our listeners to really understand how to connect with you, ask any follow up questions that they have, uh, where can they go and find more information?

[00:25:03] Megrette Fletcher: So I'm lucky to have a unique name. So Megrette. com will lead you and find you to the best, the best way to learn more about me and what I do.

[00:25:14] Shireen: Perfect. And we will link that up below. And then, um, do you also want to talk about the newsletter? How can folks sign up for that?

[00:25:21] Megrette Fletcher: So if you go to Megrette. com, there's a link there as well.

[00:25:24] You can pretty much Google no weight loss required. Um, and it should pop up, um, but no weight loss required. Dot substack. com will also get you to that newsletter.

[00:25:37] Shireen: Lovely. Lovely. And again, we'll link everything below in the, in the show notes for this episode. So folks are able to click and access it.

[00:25:44] Megrette, thank you so very much for your time and to our listeners. Thank you as well for your time. Um, at this point, you know, what time it is, we will ask the ask listeners question, which is what mindful eating practice will you integrate into your daily lives. And if you already have one, great. Let us know.

[00:26:02] Head over to at yumlish on Facebook, on Instagram, find this podcast below and comment below again, to tell us what mindful eating practice will you, or do you integrate into your daily lives? We'll continue the conversation thereafter. This episode Megrette. Thank you so much again. Take care.

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