Dr Anne-Marie Gloster discusses the importance of culinary education in promoting healthier eating habits and reflects on the influence of diverse culinary cultures. We also address common misconceptions about nutrition and how our guest, through her culinary practice, provides evidence-based guidance.

Shireen [0:32]: In today’s episode Dr. Anne-Marie Gloster discusses the importance of Culinary Education and promoting healthier eating habits and reflects on the influence of diverse culinary cultures. We also address common misconceptions about nutrition and how our guest through her culinary practice provides evidence based guidance. Stay tuned. Dr. Anne-Marie Gloster is an associate teaching professor at University of Washington in the food systems nutrition and health program. Before entering academics full time she spent 13 years working as a registered dietitian in corporate and medical environments. In her spare time she does some freelance work such as recipe testing, menu development, culinary demonstrations, kitchen design, and food systems management consulting. In today’s episode, we will discuss her perspective of culinary nutrition, the landscape of current food systems and the innovative classes she continues to pursue. Welcome Dr. Gloster. 

Dr. Gloster [1:37]: Thank you, it’s so nice to be here today.

Shireen [1:38]: Such a pleasure having you on. I do want to take a step back before we go into culinary nutrition and food systems and discuss more of that. I do want to take a step back and just understand from you your why. What really drew you to this field of nutrition and foods specifically? 

Dr. Gloster [1:57]: That’s a great question. To start with. I actually came from a family filled with food allergies. So from a young age, I understood that people had dietary challenges. And in my family, my mom really didn’t like to cook, and we had three girls. So we all kind of got forced into the kitchen to take on that role. But it was really when I got into restaurant work, and I ran a gourmet food store. And I actually was in coffee roasting in the mid 80s, which was unusual on the East Coast. And now I live on the west coast. But when I was in school, I kind of wandered and meandered toward food science. And I love that but I couldn’t see myself working in a food science lab necessarily developing food products. And so I took an introduction to nutrition course and just bells and whistles went off, and I fell in love with that. So I went on to become a dietitian. And I’ve really centered food though, in my nutrition work, which I think is a little bit different. Because sometimes with nutrition, it’s really nutrition is about the study of disease, and how food impacts your health and health outcomes and getting your health back. But food science to me and concentrating on foods, we don’t eat nutrients, we eat foods. So food science, and that focus allows me to help people create delicious and not think so much about the nutrients. 

Shireen [3:24]: Thats really the balancing act there, right, because that’s what we commonly hear from people is like, well can’t eat healthy, healthy, tastes bland or healthy doesn’t taste good. And it’s that sort of the intersection of healthy and also delicious. That’s sort of the sweet spot and really trying to make sort of longer term health changes even impact to one’s health. You spent many years in culinary arts and food systems management. How do these experiences working in and around the kitchen inform and shape your understanding of nutrition?

Dr. Gloster [3:56]: I ended up using this as I said that analogy of like nutrition is the study of nutrients and thinking about not necessarily Whole Foods, but just getting everything that you want in a pill form or a supplement or to this means to an end. But what I love about teaching people to cook and being exploratory in the culinary arts is that cooking brings people together and it’s a lifelong skill and once you know how to cook more and more worlds of food open up to you. So what I like is the fact that I can be in the grocery store anywhere and I come from North Carolina originally so we talked to everybody. So if I see that you look a little floundered in the grocery store. I’m going to start up a conversation ask what you’re looking for. What are you cooking? You know, do you need advice? I’m kind of a informal ambassador for culinary but I really feel like that everything we need to know about life you can learn in the kitchen the kitchen is a space for creativity and art, artistry, learning about science learning about math learning about history and culture. And it’s a bit place to build community around the dining table and in the kitchen. So that’s really where I like to be in.

Shireen [5:10]: that is a place certainly where the best conversations happen starting with food, but then going on to other things as well. How can this building a sense of strong community around food, better one’s understanding of nutrition, and also help us understand how the two are related.

Dr. Gloster [5:28]: Right. You know, like I was saying earlier, building on your kitchen literacy, understanding how to move through a kitchen, and cook is an exponential skill, you learn one skill, and you’re able to apply it ten more places, you learn another skill, and then you can build on that and build on that. And so what I really like is that also being in the kitchen is something that you can pay forward. So to me watching parents being in a kitchen with their kids, or a couple, or I do a lot of team building activities, sometimes with corporate settings, and just watching people interact in the kitchen is a great way to kind of build that community. But you’re also I always try to build in nutrition points wherever I can. So when I’m talking about cast iron care, for instance, and taking care of your cast iron skillets. I also talked about the fact that if you use a high acid food when cooking in a cast iron skillet and metal spatulas, they’ll flake off little bits of iron, and then that vitamin C that’s in the high acid foods will allow you to absorb that iron a little bit better. So you know, creating those spaces to build nutrition education, in with culinary education, I think is makes being in the kitchen even more fun, because you’re like, Oh, I’m really doing something great for myself. And my health.

Shireen [6:53]: You mentioned it term called Kitchen literacy. Can you help define that term a little bit?

Dr. Gloster [6:58}: Yeah, I think I’ve been using it for decades, ever since I really started teaching culinary arts. But I think that it’s a riff off of things like financial literacy and medical literacy. There is a way of moving through the kitchen. And I got two great stories of working with students in the past, if you don’t grow up in the kitchen or kitchen environment, you really don’t necessarily have that literacy level to understand something. So I had a group of student volunteers that were making muffins for a Thanksgiving feast. And they wanted to use my teaching kitchens. And I was like, absolutely. And they’re like, Oh, Dr. Gloster, we’re gonna be using Box mixes, is that okay? And I’m like, Fine, you need to make 200 muffins, do what you have to do. But I walked into the kitchen to check on the students. And there was a young lady there, making the mix. And she had a bowl and she had her hand in and she was like, mixing up the batter. And I said, What are you doing? And she said, Well, the box said, stir by hand. And so that’s what she thought she thought stir by hand meant stick your hand in it. And so I was explaining that, no, you can use a spoon, it’s okay. Then I had another student who was making brownies. And the recipe said Grease the bottom of the pan. Well, they greased the bottom of the pan, the outside bottom of the pan. So you have to realize that when people don’t have that level of kitchen literacy, they’re going to go to a direct interpretation of what they think they’re reading. So understanding the language of food also, you know, knowing what a mince is from a dice from, you know, all of those things. They’re easy to learn, and they build on themselves. So that’s yeah, kitchen literacy is very important.

Shireen [8:50]: I knew sort of chuckled when you mentioned these couple of examples, but it is so true, because where else do you learn it? How do you learn it? When do you learn it?

Dr. Gloster [8:58]: Right. And that’s what I love about the kitchen too, is it is a great place to learn to fail forward. So when I teach my culinary nutrition science class, they have edible homework, and they get to pick their recipes out of this curated list. But I say it’s okay if you create dog food. Because even if your recipe fails, you’re going to be looking at the science of the ingredients. And you’re going to backpedal and understand where something went wrong. So I had students one time that wanted to get out of culinary lab fast must have been a game day and they decided that we were making classic oatmeal chocolate chip cookies or something like that. And they threw everything into the stand mixer and turned it on high and just wanted to make everything fast. Well what happened when they did that the egg if it gets over mixed it denatures and it starts to get tighter and tighter and binds. So I walked over to them. And I said, you’re making hockey pucks. And sure enough, when they cooked them the eggs contract and then on themselves and squeezed out the water, and they had these little hockey puck cookies. Um, so learning from the science and what you’ve done is a great way to keep moving forward. So, but nobody learns this, unless you’re paying attention in the kitchen necessarily. I mean, if you don’t grow up, and you’re not comfortable in your kitchen space, coming to it as an adult, even as my undergraduates, they’re 18 on up, you know, and that’s a time when there’s a lot of peer pressure too and they want to look good in front of their peers and not mess up. But it’s a great place to learn and fail forward, pick yourself up and do the recipe again, differently the next time. So I love the kitchen, because it’s a safe place for failure.

Shireen [10:55]: Absolutely love it. Well, unless you burn something down, then it may not be that safe, but…

Dr. Gloster [10:58]: I’m not gonna lie, I burned a pork chop. Last night, I made a beautiful bourbon sauce with it for my husband. And I got a phone call and I got distracted. And it was on low. But by the time I’d gone back the sauce and caramelized and the pork chop was withered. So you know, I make mistakes all the time, too. And it’s okay. And I think that helps students a lot to hear that I do things like that. I think that, you know, failure builds resiliency, and coming back to that place in the kitchen. And trying again, and again, is really helpful. 

Shireen [11:36]: I love that, you know, I do want to go back to something else you mentioned, which is around, you know, what we were talking about earlier about making delicious and healthy happen that intersection. What role do you really believe that culinary education plays in promoting healthier eating habits? Also long lasting, healthier eating habits?

Dr. Gloster [11:58]: Right. That’s a great question. Absolutely. I fully believe that, you know, and studies have shown that when people know how to cook and cook for themselves, they will end up eating better. Because our you know, foods out in the restaurant world, and you know, whether it be sit down or fast food, they are filled with a lot of extra calories, sugar, fats, things that make everything taste better, and you know, appeal to us. But once you learn how to cook, and if you can replicate your favorite restaurant dishes, you can tweak them to make them brighter and healthier, without having to add in those extra fats and sugars and things that might not be as healthy. But I think that when you also are willing to explore, like, if you think about fruits and vegetables, I mean, even I, I’m an experienced person in the kitchen, but I don’t like tackling the butternut. I mean, that thing is big. It’s hard. It’s.. you know, so then learning how to butcher it properly, or process it properly with a pre cook. And making it easier to manage means you won’t be intimidated by it as a vegetable anymore. So I teach vegetable butchery. And I think that that is also you know, they’re just these intersections where once you can get exposed to a new ingredient, and learn how to cook it and flavor it. It’s going to be healthier and a lot more fun to eat.

Shireen [13:26]: Can you walk me through… 

Dr. Gloster [13:29]: Its a perfect marriage. 

Shireen [13:31]: Amen. Can you walk me through your approach to menu planning and recipe development to ensure nutritional adequacy and flavor? 

Dr. Gloster [13:40]: Absolutely, I would have to admit that I’m not truly a very formal menu planner right now. I have been at busier times in my life. Right now I kind of have the luxury of being able to do different things yesterday, my husband was working outside all day, and it was nasty cold weather. And I was like, I want to make him a lunch that’s going to be warm and delicious. And so I took my favorite Louisiana shrimp etouffee recipe. And I adapted it and I cooked it with salmon at chunks instead. And it’s such a simple recipe. But it brings big, big flavor and it’s actually low sodium and so and it’s warming on a cold day. So it turned out really nicely. I’m always trying to think about go to recipes. One of the things I stress to my students is if you can have just 10 of your favorite recipes, and you know how to cook them well. Then also knowing how to, you know substitute different ingredients in different places. So instead of the shrimp I use cube salmon, and my thing and thinking about that recipe was I don’t want the same and to fall apart and flake. So I actually left the skin on the cubes of fillet and I was worried that they might be a little chewy or something because they weren’t seared but they turned out brilliantly. So I was excited by that. But menu planning is definitely I like to cook a lot of things on the Sunday, that then I can pull out and reheat or pull together. Something more simplistic like cooking a batch of rice every Sunday is, you know, very helpful. And one of the key things I try to tell people, if you have one of those electric kettles, which I absolutely have to have, because as I just said, I walked away from a pork chop last night, and it turned into a disaster. And I’ve been known to let kettles go and have disasters so I like my electric kettle that automatically shuts off. But if you think about almost anything you want to cook for dinner, it might require hot water, whether you’re going to steam something, you’re going to want to start some rice, you’re going to make some pasta, you’re going to boil something etc. So the first thing I do when I come home, is I fill up my kettle and I turn it on, and then I go change into my house uniform. And by the time I get back to the kitchen, I’ve already got a nice batch of hot water to start prepping into whatever I feel like making that evening. And so you know, little things like that can make your time in the kitchen, just super efficient. And so I don’t always think it’s about an entire week’s menus per se. But just knowing how to navigate and get dinner on the table every night. Simpler is a big challenge for everybody. 

Shireen [16:27]: And simple is really key, right? You don’t want it to be daunting or overwhelming. It’s really about cutting back and simplifying it for yourself so that you can build lasting healthier habits there. You know, you mentioned the etouffee, which leads me to my next question. You certainly lived across the country from North Carolina and to Seattle, Washington. What do you enjoy about different culinary cultures in these regions? And even broadly across the United States? How do they influence your own interest in food science? And then broadly human nutrition as well? 

Dr. Gloster [16:58]: Yeah that’s a great question. Yes, I came from North Carolina. I spent one summer about a decade ago and Albuquerque and learning southwest cuisine for three months. And then ironically, my neighbor next to me in Albuquerque, was from India. And so she actually gave me a great education in Indian cooking, that was wonderful. And then here I am in the Pacific Northwest, surrounded by some of the most incredible seafood, and Native Americans cooking, culinary traditions, etc. And so in a place of mushroom foraging, you know, just so many other traditions, but what I love about my career is that I feel like I am a jack of all trades, Jill, of all trades or I’m a generalist, something grabs my passion, and I will do it for six months, or a year or a couple of years. And learn it, teach it, understand it, and then move on to whatever my next obsession is. And so I’m just finishing teaching fermentation sciences this quarter. And I absolutely love it. I love, I’ve had so many fermentation failures, in addition to fermentation successes. But what I like about this class is I’ve motivated a lot of students who have come to me over the last 10 weeks, and they’ll bring in their pickles or their kimchi. And they’ll, like, Would you try it would, you know, and I gave away sourdough starter that I had captured in Tuscany. And so my sourdough starter, since it’s probably about 20 years old, has started in Tuscany, and then it developed some yeast and bacteria from North Carolina, and then Albuquerque, and then Seattle, and now on Whidbey Island where I live. So it’s a very rich blend of bacteria and yeast. And so giving that away and spreading that forward to my students was also a lot of fun. So, yeah, when I get obsessed with something, I just kind of dive into it. But I love different cultures. And there’s so much I like to say that you think about the world of food, it’s like as big as a watermelon. And you know, I might have just the knowledge that’s like the size of it’s orange compared to that watermelon, I can never eat or know the whole watermelon. So for me, it’s been a lifelong learning, is to keep food at front and center of my career. And my life

Shireen [19:24]: And speaking of which, you know, talking about sort of understanding and then building upon that with additional learning. In your opinion, what are the most common misconceptions that people have about nutrition and how do you address them through your culinary practice? 

Dr. Gloster [19:42]: Yeah, I have students all the time that you know, have specific nutritional needs in the classroom. I try to back away from that because I’m not there working as a registered dietician, and I don’t want to give culinary advice on a personal level. But my goal is to educate them in general so that they and make informed choices about their own dietary, you know, kind of pathway or journey. And that’s what I think it is. I think that the complex thing about nutrition and why we don’t have, we’re really at our infancy and understanding nutrition, and things get trendy. I mean, in my time in my lifetime, I’ve watched eggs go in and out of favor. I’ve watched butter and margarine and the debate between those and you know, we at one point put lard in peanut butter, and then we took it out. And we told people it was cholesterol free. Well, the peanut is cholesterol free all along. So, you know, there’s so many intersections where yes, education can inform nutrition and make those choices. But I like people to be educated and then make those choices themselves. So it’s really fun to watch lightbulbs go off when students understand a concept. And they can then make a better informed choice about what they’re putting on their plate and what they’re putting in their mouths. But I do hear a lot of bad science and bad dietary advice that I do try to counteract, but I asked them to explore that 

Shireen [21:17]: I see, any new ones trending that you can share with us, as far as such misconceptions are concerned? 

Dr. Gloster [21:33]: Well, like I said, the thing that I really enjoy or stressed most about is the move toward taking nutrients in an individual form, and then putting them in supplements, or what they now call them functional foods. And there’s a place for that. But at the same time, I think that when we eat foods in harmony with how nature intended us to eat them, seasonally, and if they’re been grown locally, hopefully, you know organic when you can afford it, but it’s not, you know, always the case, that’s going to be the better way to get those nutrients in. And I think it’s the more delicious way. My problem with ultra processed foods is that I often can taste the chemicaliness to them and I just don’t like that. And I think the more you’re exposed to fresh foods and you know, local foods and scratch made foods, you move away from that chemical palette and foods start to taste better. So yeah, there’s lots of things that I see trending that I don’t like, because I don’t want us to, you know, be like in the movies in the future where we’re having everything in a cup or everything in a pill or everything in a cracker. That’s going to be functional for us. I know I want delicious. I’m chasing delicious, not functional. 

Shireen [22:44]: Oh I love that. I think we’re gonna make that the quote for this episode. Absolutely. With that, actually, last year, we are toward the end of the episode, unfortunately. Can you tell us how listeners connect with you and learn more about your work?

Dr. Gloster [22:59]: Well, I am currently teaching at the University of Washington here in Seattle. And I’m going to have to admit, I’m really not one of those social media people. I’m trying to think about doing my own podcast or a YouTube channel as I move into more retirement and get a little bit more free time. But I am just here and I’m teaching and I’m enjoying developing new programs all the time. And yeah, I love this area-  part of the country and I’m really excited to be here and just keep working.

Shireen [23:30]: With that. Dr. Gloster, thank you so very much for your time. To our listeners. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Yumlish podcast, head over to our social media, you know exactly what time it is help answer this quick question that we have for you, which is “What culinary culture influenced your perspective on nutrition and health. Again, what culinary culture influenced your perspective on nutrition and health, head over to our Facebook, head over to our Instagram.  Find this podcast post and comment below with your answer to this question. We will continue the conversation there. Dr. Gloster, Thank you again

Dr. Gloster [24:07]: Thank you. 

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